Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

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Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Lisa_K » Thu May 18, 2017 9:58 pm

Hey now, let's disregard the politics involved, whether her actions were right or wrong and whatever other feelings you may have about her. The fact is she's out of prison and published her first photo.

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I think she looks amazing for the hell she's been through.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby MikiSJ » Thu May 18, 2017 10:37 pm

Chelsea Manning deserved every minute she spent in jail and is lucky to have had Obama's sense of justice.

35 years was too long, and what she spend incarcerate was about right.

Simply being a sister doesn't get her off the hook for the damage she did.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Lisa_K » Thu May 18, 2017 11:24 pm

Lisa_K wrote:Hey now, let's disregard the politics involved...

Had my intent been to discuss what she did or what she deserved, I would have posted it in the politics forum.

MikiSJ wrote:Simply being a sister doesn't get her off the hook for the damage she did.

My post wasn't about damage, crime or punishment, it was about the aspects of her being a "sister".

These same two images have been used on every news story and article for the last seven years. I just thought it was nice to see what she really looks like.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Savage She-Hulk » Fri May 19, 2017 1:28 am

It IS a nice picture of her. I hope she has an easier time of it...
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Rheya » Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am

She does look good, and it was nice to see a more proper - for lack of a better word - picture of her. It was only this morning when I saw a news story about this picture that I realized the only picture of her that I'd ever seen banded about was that odd black and white one.

Hopefully she can attain some kind of normalcy after all this and have a good life.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CuteButLooksPregnant » Fri May 19, 2017 10:48 am

Love her or hate her, she is destined to become a celebrity for the rest of her life. Personally, since I am not politically active, nor have I ever had contact with the onerous military or the brutal prison system, therefore, I can mentally divorce her from her previous military life, and take an interest in her past and current transition, both to civilian life, and to her correct gender of a pretty, young woman. She will soon be a civilian, with an uncertain future in front of her, but she can face that with confidence now.

BTW---I read in an online newspaper that friends and people who have taken an interest in her have set up a Go Fund Me webpage to help her pay for her relocation, reentry into civilian life, and transition costs.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Rheya » Fri May 19, 2017 1:48 pm

CuteButLooksPregnant wrote:BTW---I read in an online newspaper that friends and people who have taken an interest in her have set up a Go Fund Me webpage to help her pay for her relocation, reentry into civilian life, and transition costs.


That is rather lovely. If only all American former prisoners had such help (honestly your prison system is horrifying).
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CuteButLooksPregnant » Fri May 19, 2017 8:39 pm

Rheya wrote:
CuteButLooksPregnant wrote:BTW---I read in an online newspaper that friends and people who have taken an interest in her have set up a Go Fund Me webpage to help her pay for her relocation, reentry into civilian life, and transition costs.


That is rather lovely. If only all American former prisoners had such help (honestly your prison system is horrifying).


I'm sure that others want to force her into a Salem Witch Trial on social media, and then burn her at the stake. As I said, it's a case of " Love her or Hate her ".
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby marie » Sat May 20, 2017 9:46 am

She looks well, she's lucky to have a slight figure. I wish her well.

What I didn't like was part of the reason given for her actions was partly gender dysphoria. I didn't like that because it only helps make all of us look bad, somehow prone to erratic behaviour, not to be trusted. Not helpful for us in general. We don't need any more sticks handed out to the bigots to beat us with.

The sentence was ridiculous, 35 years for leaking information while secret was not top secret. I think it was said that as many as 3 million personnel had access to that info. So not exactly the worst of crimes. But she did betray her country and her oath. Something I would take seriously. I have to say though she seems particularly naïve and foolish.

I would prefer a more positive role model for the transgender people.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CuteButLooksPregnant » Sat May 20, 2017 4:30 pm

marie wrote:I would prefer a more positive role model for the transgender people.


Who ? Caitlyn Jenner ?
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby MikiSJ » Sat May 20, 2017 6:23 pm

CuteButLooksPregnant wrote:
marie wrote:I would prefer a more positive role model for the transgender people.


Who ? Caitlyn Jenner ?

Oh, the list is so short:
    Kate Bornstein
    Jennifer Boylan
    Candis Cayne
    Laverne Cox
    Laura Jane Grace
    Anna Grodzka
    Janet Mock
    Lana Wachowski
    Lilly Wachowski
    ...
Courtesy of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... der_people
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Lisa_K » Sat May 20, 2017 7:50 pm

MikiSJ, you should probably add Sarah McBride to your list? Also, when we're talking role models, role models to whom? Trans people or the general ignorant public?

Curiously, I'd place Janet Mock at the top of that list as her experience is closest to mine but in many respects, I think she's drank a little too much of the transgender politically correct Kool-Aid. Then again, who hasn't? And Kate Bornstein a role model? Not for me, thanks.

Also, let we not forget the likes of Jazz Jennings, Corey Maison and Nicole Maines.

If we're talking trans youth, it's likely none on your list would be their role models? They look to YouTubers like Gigi Gorgeous, PrincessJoules, Angela Vanity, Elena Genevieve, Raiden Quinn, Chloe Arden, Stef Sanjati, Elle Bradford, Maya, Nikita Dragun, Brittany Kade, Kat Blaque, etc., and for the guys, Ty Turner, UppercaseCHASE1 and a whole lot more I don't remember. I think a lot of these are inappropriate but kids aren't going to look up to the Jenny Boylans and Kate Bornsteins. Just like you probably haven't heard of half on the YouTube list, most kids couldn't give a rat's arse about old folks.

So, are we confusing roles models with spokespersons or is that just me?
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby MikiSJ » Sat May 20, 2017 11:53 pm

I just googled a list of transgender folk and when the list I linked to popped up I went from the top and picked off names I recognized and then the list became so long I just cut it off.

Yeah, Janet Mock. She is beautiful, passes (wow, does she pass), drinks a lot of KoolAid and if she presents and represents us well before the general public, then yay! For us, for her, for Chelsea, for you, for me. Yay!!
So, are we confusing roles models with spokespersons or is that just me?

Can't they be the same?
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby helen2b » Sun May 21, 2017 3:22 am

marie wrote:... But she did betray her country and her oath.


Marie, please watch the video I posted under the heading of Chelsea Manning in the politics forum.. There is a presidential executive order which makes it illegal to make something which is a crime, classified in order to cover it up. If you look at the things she called out (itemised in the video), she acted with honour in shining a light on all the crap that was going on. I hope if It had been me in Chelsea's position, I would have showed the same courage to blow the whistle instead of turning a blind eye to obvious wrong doing.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby diane » Sun May 21, 2017 7:44 am

helen2b wrote:
marie wrote:... But she did betray her country and her oath.


Marie, please watch the video I posted under the heading of Chelsea Manning in the politics forum.. There is a presidential executive order which makes it illegal to make something which is a crime, classified] in order to cover it up. If you look at the things she called out (itemised in the video), she acted with honour in shining a light on all the crap that was going on. I hope if It had been me in Chelsea's position, I would have showed the same courage to blow the whistle instead of turning a blind eye to obvious wrong doing.



Not wanting to get off topic as I was very glad she got out, and thought she looked so much better than I had ever expected that I was shocked to see.....

But I can say that if you see/know something is happening somewhere that you have the docs/proof of it, and it's potentially even costing lives, it's very hard to keep silent as you can feel like you're personally the one doing it.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CeliaEriksson » Sun May 21, 2017 8:18 am

Yes, she looks great, don't know much about her tbh, vaguely know her name over here. Know some of the others Miki listed, btw never knew what KoolAid was either, looked it up online....
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CuteButLooksPregnant » Sun May 21, 2017 2:01 pm

CeliaEriksson wrote: btw-never knew what KoolAid was either, looked it up online....


KoolAid is a powder that you mix with water to make a non-carbonated soft drink in many different flavors. In the USA, as least, the term " Drink the KoolAid " can also be seen as something or some action that one takes to commit suicide, or to bring to the absolute end of something.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Lisa_K » Sun May 21, 2017 2:02 pm

MikiSJ wrote:Can't they be the same?

Many on the right think that Blair White is a trans spokesperson because she's conservative and spews their ideology and because she's anti-feminist, anti-SJW, anti-transtrender and anti-transkid but is she a role model for transpeople? Would straight outta Tumblr transtrender SJW's, most notably Milo Stewart and Riley J. Dennis be good spokespeople for "real" trans people? It would be nice if role models and spokespeople were the same things but I can think of very few examples where that is the case.

You've got to remember that in spite of my age, it's easy for me to understand the perspectives of trans youth and I've spent close to the last two years observing and learning about the information available to them as well as the social and cultural influences they are exposed to. Sure, everyone wants someone with presence in the mainstream media to be representative of their experience as part of the big picture but the disparity between role model and spokesperson varies widely by generation.

Also consider that I had neither spokesperson nor role model and am probably more critical than most? Christine Jorgensen didn't do much for me and I had been long since transitioned and buried in the woodwork when Renée Richards came along.

CeliaEriksson wrote:... btw never knew what KoolAid was either, looked it up online....

Did you understand the context or way that Kool-Aid was used?

From Wikiepedia:
"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is an idiom commonly used in the United States that refers to any person or group who knowingly goes along with a doomed or dangerous idea because of peer pressure.

I really like Janet Mock and understand that a person of her visibility is more or less required to tow the party line. I shouldn't complain, she does what she does well but is a little too much "happy umbrella" for me at times.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby MikiSJ » Sun May 21, 2017 3:28 pm

Lisa, we choose our role models by how closely they fit our world view.

If Janet Mock came out as a conservative alt-right flame-thrower I would never read another word she posted or was posted about her positions on anything.

I am a 70 year old, liberal progressive transwoman who sees life through a very well polished prism of skepticism. I may not always get my interpretations correct, but it is very difficult to fool me. I would never consider those examples you gave as meeting my test for spokesperson. But, my question is still valid:
Can't they be the same?

I, like you, remember the headlines following Jorgensen's GCS. I remember when Jan Morris withstood the humiliation of Johnny Carson's arrogance when she plugged her book, 'Conundrum' and I remember the controversy when Richards wanted to play pro tennis as a woman. I share most of your view of transhistory.
Lisa_K wrote:the disparity between role model and spokesperson varies widely by generation

I also remember our little group had a couple of young transwomen (early 20s) join us one evening. Wow, did they know everything, and I mean everything about being trans. We (age 50+) simply didn't get it. (Right!)
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Lisa_K » Sun May 21, 2017 5:27 pm

MikiSJ wrote:Lisa, we choose our role models by how closely they fit our world view.

If Janet Mock came out as a conservative alt-right flame-thrower I would never read another word she posted or was posted about her positions on anything.

Again, role models and representative spokespersons aren't the same thing. As far as trans things go, I don't have any role models and have more or less foraged my own way for a very long time but there are people I don't mind speaking of the trans experience even if it doesn't match my own as long as the overly inclusive narrative isn't pushed i.e. that anyone the least bit variant in their gender expression is trans. I would rather stand in the rain than under that PC umbrella.

MikiSJ wrote:I am a 70 year old, liberal progressive transwoman who sees life through a very well polished prism of skepticism. I may not always get my interpretations correct, but it is very difficult to fool me. I would never consider those examples you gave as meeting my test for spokesperson. But, my question is still valid: "Can't they be the same"?

Clearly not or very rarely. Don't forget, I'm a few days shy of being halfway to my 63rd birthday so you aren't that much older than me. I'm not a political person but if pressed, would consider myself more middle of the road that is only "progressive" on social issues such as LGBT stuff, drug laws and keeping religious influence the hell out of government. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but it's not often that someone can pull the wool over my eyes either so I do know what you're talking about. What you may not understand is that the examples I listed ARE the role models of today's youth whether anyone in the mainstream knows who they or not.

MikiSJ wrote:I, like you, remember the headlines following Jorgensen's GCS. I remember when Jan Morris withstood the humiliation of Johnny Carson's arrogance when she plugged her book, 'Conundrum' and I remember the controversy when Richards wanted to play pro tennis as a woman. I share most of your view of transhistory.

Jorgensen and Morris were 30 years older than me and both had identities as men prior to transition, especially Morris. Do you think as a well beyond androgynous fifteen year-old that was only being held back by the social and legal limitations of the era that I found them any way relatable or representative of my experience? When Richards hit the scene, I was 22 - she was 42 or 43, a generation older. They sure as hell weren't role models either. You may share my view and recollection of transhistory but certainly not my perspective.

Lisa_K wrote:the disparity between role model and spokesperson varies widely by generation

MikiSJ wrote:I also remember our little group had a couple of young transwomen (early 20s) join us one evening. Wow, did they know everything, and I mean everything about being trans. We (age 50+) simply didn't get it. (Right!)

I hear what you're saying and get your point about know-it-all young whippersnappers but would they be role models or spokespersons for your group? Could you relate to one another and would you want these 20 year-olds representing you? I may be somewhat of a role model to some simply due to my age and trans experience but I could pretty much bet you wouldn't want me to be spokesperson for your group either because my life experience is so dissimilar. So no, role models and spokespeople aren't the same thing.

Of to the market, to wash my car and mow my lawn. Just because we don't agree on things, Miki, it doesn't mean I don't like you. :)
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Rheya » Mon May 22, 2017 5:51 am

My role models growing up were people like Oscar Wilde, Tom Waits, David Bowie, Lou Reed, Patti Smith, Jean-Luc Picard and Dr. Frank-N-furter from Rocky Horror Picture Show - and more than anything I wanted to be like Morticia Addams in every way possible (something I have sadly never managed in any way at all).

I think that for most people this whole 'trans' thing is one part of life, and eventually not a very big one, sometimes it is not a part at all. I am not done with transition and yet when I look at the past few years I don't look at transition or being transgendered as really being a majority part. I do not doubt that young transpeople coming up today have many other interests, skills, talents and things they like to do and care about that have nothing at all to do with trans-anything. Spokespersons and transgendered role models do not affect everyone and the ones they do affect they do not affect in equal measure nor does their grip last forever, and sometimes only for the time that the person gives them attention. A decent spokesperson or two is good to have for all those cispeople out there, but I think it is underestimated how much transgendered people do for their own rights and for each other's safety and happiness simply by being alive and pursuing a life as a human being. All the flare of television and social media too often obscures the reality of everyday life and the impact of those who do not pursue a soap box.

I did not have any trans role models, but I did not make my own way and I do not think anyone can in life. When I look back at my life now it seems clear to me that it was a combination of the books of Hunter S. Thompson, John Locke's Essay, George Orwell and the movies of Akira Kurosawa and Satoshi Kon that helped me most when it comes to dealing with gender dysphoria. Did any of that have anything to do with being transgendered? Nothing except that one character in Tokyo Godfathers, but all of it helped me grow as a human being and that in turn guided me through the difficulties of having gender dysphoria. Nothing exists in a void, and certainly not gender dysphoria or any kind of trouble a person can have with their gender.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby mitzidog » Mon May 22, 2017 6:55 am

Most of my role models are people I know, who have nurtured me in some way. My high school English Teacher, my boss at Sony, my current team leader. In a way I don't need my role models to be the same as me or share something of me, I need them to be wholly themselves, true to what they are and good people because they choose to be.

The "celebrity trans person" is unlikely to be a role model to me. Their experience is eased by celebrity and/or money in a way that mine can never be. More likely in this context will be my friend Emma who has run an LGBT helpline for over a decade and just been Emma without her own transition ever really coming up. She really is amazing and worth looking up to.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CeliaEriksson » Mon May 22, 2017 9:11 am

Hi everyone.

So the term regarding KoolAid is not known in England and the drink is not found here. I can't even think of anything like it either, that's on sale here. As for the term, I guess we learn something new every day.

I have no tg role models really, but as I said here before, my role model was the late great Mary Tyler Moore. I was around 10 or 11, when her own show was on tv in the UK. Soon I wanted to be her. I copied her American accent at school and pretended I was really from Minneapolis. Within a day of pretence my teacher asked about it and I announced it to the whole class. My elder brother thought it hilarious and soon enough, with lots of embarrassment, I was found out. Later I discovered she shared my absolute love of animals and did lots of stuff to help with animal welfare and the hero worship has remained. I don't usually get upset when famous people died, but I was very upset when she left us in January. Silly I know, to grieve for someone you never met, but there I am, I won't change me.

I'm a little blue at the moment, my emotion is running high over someone, so sorry to ramble on a bit. But, no worry, I'll get over it, it wasn't as serious as I thought, anyway. Story of my life. Celia xxxx
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Rheya » Mon May 22, 2017 12:06 pm

CeliaEriksson wrote:Hi everyone.So the term regarding KoolAid is not known in England and the drink is not found here. I can't even think of anything like it either, that's on sale here. As for the term, I guess we learn something new every day.


I knew what KoolAid was - sort of, a bit - but had not heard of it as a slang either. I wonder why it has such dark connotations, maybe KoolAid tastes awful? Sometimes phrases like that don't make much sense. There's a phrase in my native language that - a bit roughly translated - goes "Don't poop in the blue cabinet". It means to not poop in your own backyard, more or less, but I have no idea what this blue cabinet is, why it is blue, or why anyone would or should not poop in it.

CeliaEriksson wrote:I copied her American accent at school and pretended I was really from Minneapolis.


Well that just seems like a good and sensible life decision to me.

mitzidog wrote:Most of my role models are people I know, who have nurtured me in some way.


I've always been really jealous of people who have this, but I hope that it is a fairly common thing with people. I grew up with horrendous human beings on all sides which is why I looked up to a lot of fictional characters, especially freaks and weirdos. I suppose I was reasonably desperate to believe that a human being could be a lot better than the people who surrounded me. I was also desperate to look for some way, some light, that could lead me away from becoming anything like those shitty people; quite frankly, I thank my grandmothers for that instinct, I did not know them long but they were the only two decent people I had ever known until about the age of twenty-two. Sometimes that's all it takes to keep a person going, I suppose.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Lisa_K » Mon May 22, 2017 12:54 pm

Who would have thought Kool-Aid raised so many questions? :)

I didn't know this was a US only saying until I read the Wikipedia article. I guess I should have included more of it?

From Wikipedia
The phrase derives from the November 1978 Jonestown deaths, in which over 900 members of the Peoples Temple, who were followers of Jim Jones, died, many of whom committed suicide by drinking a mixture of a powdered soft-drink flavoring agent laced with cyanide and prescription drugs Valium, Phenergan, and chloral hydrate, while the rest of the members, including 89 infants and elderly, were killed by forced ingestion of the poison. The actual brand of soft-drink flavoring was a mixture of both Kool-Aid and a competing brand, Flavor Aid.


Oh, and I did have a role model growing up - my mom! Damned if I'm not just like her in more ways than I'd like to admit!
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby helen2b » Tue May 23, 2017 4:07 am

I think Kool-aid has dark connotations because it was kool-aid mixed with poison that was drunk by all the people that died in the Jonestown mass suicide.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby diane » Tue May 23, 2017 8:02 am

helen2b wrote:I think Kool-aid has dark connotations because it was kool-aid mixed with poison that was drunk by all the people that died in the Jonestown mass suicide.



Probably.... granted it has a meaning now of "a person who buys into a person's/companies/etc philosophy without question"... which again is a horrible thing... but also because of the mass suicide.
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CeliaEriksson » Tue May 23, 2017 11:54 am

From Wikipedia
The actual brand of soft-drink flavoring was a mixture of both Kool-Aid and a competing brand, Flavor Aid.


KoolAid and now Flavo(u)rAid? Two powdery drinks? Sounds awful, sorry my American cousins, but if it is not in liquid form, unfizzy and natural, it don't pass my lips.....
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby Lisa_K » Tue May 23, 2017 1:26 pm

Talk about off-topic! :D

Do you not have flavored, powdered products, sometimes pre-sweetened, sometimes not that are mixed with with water to make a soft drink? No Tang, Crystal Light, instant lemonade mix, etc.?

Oh my!
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Re: Chelsea Manning is out and she's gorgeous!

Postby CeliaEriksson » Tue May 23, 2017 1:33 pm

No Lisa, truly we don't. We have Alka Seltzer that's powder Liver Salts, but that's medicinal. That's why it's weird, I've never known a powdered drink here.... hold on, we had Nesquick, but that was mixed with milk, no watery type drinks powders though.
Take chances, make mistakes. That's how you grow. Pain nourishes your courage. You have to fail in order to practice being brave.
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