Are my ideas just completely wrong?

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Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Kaylalovescupcakes » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:56 pm

Alright, so probably going to wind up being a long post. I've had this idea for a while that a good way to quell some of the hatred towards us may be to just quiet down about the issue for a while and let people move on to something new to get angry about. I feel that rather than talking rationally about the subject, people are just moving to take more and more extreme stances, and just creating a larger division between people. I think that real change will come from compromise, and seeing the other side's point of view, and both sides seem far from willing to compromise. I came across a Metal Injection article on FB about Danica Roem, a transgender metal vocalist who is running for the Virginia House of delegates, and made a few comments about this idea. (I'd like to make it clear that this isn't specifically about Roem, the article about her is just what got me going about this) I'll leave my name in, but I'm not going to post the names of people who replied to me, and I'll do a little formatting to make the copy/pasted comments more readable. Here are the comments:

Kayla Lindemann - For fucks sake, no. Just going to make everything fucking worse for trans people. Stop trying to draw attention to us. It's better if people just kinda forget we exist.

Person 1 - Nah. She is taking the brunt of assholes to pave a better way and future.

Kayla Lindemann - That's not how I see it, honestly. I think that making trans people a mainstream issue is only making things worse for us, or at least that the way people go about talking about it makes things worse. It's an extremely polarizing issue, and it seems rare for anyone to have a moderate opinion about it. From what I've seen and experienced, people that are actively discussing this kind of thing usually tend to side with one extreme or the other. When people who may have otherwise just kind of ignored us are told that they're bigots for not being 101% supportive, they naturally want to push back. For example: I came out as trans not too long before the kaitlyn jenner thing happened. For a while everything was fine. Then, when all the shit with jenner blew up, for the first time since coming out I started dealing with people I knew in real life hating me for being a part of the same group as the person who pissed them off. There have always been people who don't like us, and you probably won't change those people's minds by making a big deal about it. The peoples' minds that will be changed by it are the people who didn't care at the time, or maybe weren't sure how they felt about it. Because of a very vocal minority of people spewing bullshit, we all get lumped together and treated like we're all the same kind of overly sensitive, politically correct moron, and it's doing nothing good for those of us who just want to live our lives and be left alone.

Person 2 - Kayla Lindemann I am so sorry for what you have to go through. I read the comments on here and feel absolutely sick. I try to surround myself with happy, loving people, so when I see so many disgusting, hateful people posting comments on Facebook posts like this, it absolutely breaks my heart. You are very brave. Good for you staying true to yourself despite how mean the world can be.

Kayla Lindemann - Thanks for the kind words, but kinda missing my point. If this person runs for some kind of public position, all it's going to do is piss people off and turn more people against us. The example I gave was just to show that I've seen that kinda thing happen before, and not to garner sympathy. And please don't say I'm brave. I'm just doing what I can in order to cope with a mental disorder.

Person 3 - You suffer now so the ones who come after dont have too. We used to lock up gay people 50 years ago and if those people had your attitude we still would. Things changed because a few stood up.

Kayla Lindemann - If you want to stand up for trans people, I think it's better to quietly support further scientific research into the subject, and further development of treatment options. I don't think that shoving it down peoples' throats like this is the right way to go about it. What needs to happen is for people to better understand us so that we're seen more as individuals and as less of a homogeneous outgroup. When people feel like they're being forced to accept us, then they stop trying to understand us, and start seeing us as "the Other". You won't win many arguments by just telling someone they're wrong. Instead, it's better to just show them that maybe they already agree with you more than they realize.

Person 4 - Hmmm imagine if MLK had your mentality

Kayla Lindemann - This is a different issue, in a different time. If we just let the hype die down for a while, and come back to the issue from a more reasonable angle motivated by science rather than by emotions, I think people would be more open minded about it. We don't need a revolution, we just need to be better understood.


I feel like my reasoning is fairly valid, even if that first post did seem pretty simplistic and angry. It kind of annoyed me that people didn't really seem to be getting the point of what I was saying, when I explained my point of view further. The comments about gay people and Martin Luther King Jr. didn't really make much sense to me. It seemed like people thought I was saying that we should just ignore trans people and not do anything at all to help further our acceptance in society, when all I was saying was that maybe we should wait a little while until people aren't so damn angry about it, and avoid doing things that will make people even more angry. Like I said in my response, this a different issue, in a different time, and so can't necessarily be handled in the exact same way. As for the comment about Roem taking the brunt of the hate directed at trans people, I don't think that's true. I don't believe one trans person putting them self in a position where they will be subjected to hatred will make the people hating on them focus only on them, and stop hating on other trans people.

I realize I'm probably not as far left as a lot of you here, and I usually try not to barf out my own opinions on the far-left, but I'm going to let that show through for a minute here. I really don't like the type of people going around talking about things like "genderfluid" or "non-binary", etc. It's not that I think those people shouldn't be able to live the way they want. Not at all. I feel that personal liberty should be held in extremely high regard, and that as long as no one's getting hurt people should be able to whatever their heart desires. I just don't like them because they piss off the right, and then that anger gets directed towards trans people as a whole. I find many of the arguments made by the left to be equally as irrational as the arguments made by the right. I don't think it should be ILLEGAL to misgender someone. It's certainly rude, but it's not a crime. I don't think that people should be expected to memorize a laundry list of pronouns, and automatically know what a person wants to be referred to as. I don't think that people who aren't completely on board with us should be branded as bigots, unless they demonstrate real hatred or prejudice, like, say assaulting someone, or refusing to hire or provide public services to someone based solely on their gender identity. Especially not the people who are just pushing back against things like the "72 genders" meme.

Like I said at the beginning of this, what we need is compromise. We all just need to calm down, take a step back, and examine things objectively. Emotions are raging in the current political climate, and emotions get in the way of logic. I think the left and right just need to meet in the middle, rather than trying to push their more extreme views on each other and bring people to the opposite side of the spectrum, because that shit just doesn't work.

I'd really like to know if I'm just a crazy asshole, or if maybe there's some credence to what I'm thinking here. I do my absolute best to stay open minded and let in new ideas, so if you think I'm wrong, tell me why and let's talk about it. Let's not get mad, and let's not fight. Let's just have a discussion between human beings about what we think the best way to handle the way things are right now.

Oh, and here's the article from the beginning of my post if you're curious about it: http://www.metalinjection.net/politics/transgender-metal-vocalist-danica-roem-running-for-virginia-house-of-delegates

TL;DR : I'm annoyed that everyone feels the need to take such extreme stances on the trans issue. I feel that by taking these stances, we're all just pissing each other off, and it's getting in the way of actual progress. I think that we should just let the anger die down and focus on the scientific side of the trans issue for a while, and then come back to it as a social issue when we're better prepared to talk about it rationally. I want to know if this is a dumb idea, because from some the replies I got on some FB comments, people seem to think it's a dumb idea.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Shizuku » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:48 am

Regardless of rationality, there's going to be opposition. This should be a non-issue, but it isn't. I think the point that they're trying to make is that people are going to hate what they do not understand; (for better or worse) greater awareness/exposure can change the general public's perception of what is 'normal'. Attitudes about us aren't really going to change if we suddenly fade into obscurity. Dissenters could use the opportunity to target us and spread misinformation.
"The true mind can weather all lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can touch the poison of hatred without being harmed."
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby MikiSJ » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:56 pm

A complicated proposition - to be or not to be: trans.

I understand Kayla's concern, I think. Let's assume that a well adjusted, fully assimilated transperson wants to participate in the political process. This fellow, who was born female, wants to run on a platform of truth and transparency. Does he hide his birth sex or disclose his transition?

In today's political atmosphere, opposition research is simply as important, if not more so, than topic research. The fellow decides to be open and to take it on the political chin upfront, rather than have to explain his hiding of his transitioning decades ago that would undoubtedly be disclosed through opposition research. I agree with this tactic.

But, this doesn't answer Kayla's concern of will his transition become important and more so than his topic position. It might, and where he has chosen to run will be important. If he has chosen to run in Tupelo, Mississippi and is also a Jew or atheist he will not have a chance. If he is running in San Francisco, Seattle or some other progressive town, maybe he will have a chance to show his transition is not important and his topic position are what is important.

In a related topic - Pride.

I have done some things in my life that I am very proud of. Raising my two kids, keeping my marriage loving and together, the homes I built, some of the real estate transactions I managed - but, being a transwoman is not something to be proud of.

I am no more proud of accepting my mental and physical condition of wanting to be a woman than I would be of exclaiming my pride in being born with a bad set of lungs or congenital heart defect. We incorrectly assign pride to things that have not earned pride. Gay Pride, Trans Pride, White Pride, Left-handed Pride.

Rather than exhibit a misplaced pride, I believe we will be better served by showing our courage in accepting who we have become and displaying that courage by standing up and letting our neighbors know there is very little different between us and the individual standing next to us.

I am not proud of being a transwoman, but I am glad I have found the courage, as most of us here also have, to no longer hide who I have become.
When writing the next chapter in your life, start with a pencil and eraser - my first page as Miki is full of eraser marks. Doodling is allowed. I have started a new chapter but will still use a pencil.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Kaylalovescupcakes » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:26 am

You're both missing my point. I even said in my post that people seemed to be missing my point. Actually, parts of my post addressed what both of you said.

Shizuku wrote:Regardless of rationality, there's going to be opposition. This should be a non-issue, but it isn't. I think the point that they're trying to make is that people are going to hate what they do not understand; (for better or worse) greater awareness/exposure can change the general public's perception of what is 'normal'. Attitudes about us aren't really going to change if we suddenly fade into obscurity. Dissenters could use the opportunity to target us and spread misinformation.


Kaylalovescupcakes wrote: If you want to stand up for trans people, I think it's better to quietly support further scientific research into the subject, and further development of treatment options. I don't think that shoving it down peoples' throats like this is the right way to go about it. What needs to happen is for people to better understand us so that we're seen more as individuals and as less of a homogeneous outgroup. When people feel like they're being forced to accept us, then they stop trying to understand us, and start seeing us as "the Other".

It seemed like people thought I was saying that we should just ignore trans people and not do anything at all to help further our acceptance in society, when all I was saying was that maybe we should wait a little while until people aren't so damn angry about it, and avoid doing things that will make people even more angry.


We're getting exposure, yes. People are aware of us, yes. But I think we should really take a close look at the way we're being represented and think about "is this really how we want people to think we are?" From what I've seen, most people think we're all just crazy social justice warriors, and that kind of exposure is doing nothing good for us. Is that really what we want to normalize? I don't see many studies on the reasoning behind why people are trans being shared around. All I seem to see is one side calling people faggots, and the other side calling people Nazis. If we can set our emotions aside and focus on the facts, rather than just spewing our feelings at each other, I think it would have the potential to change our public image into something better.


MikiSJ, you're a little closer to the mark, but still a little bit off. I'm not talking about a trans person trying to be involved in politics. I said that explicitly at the start of the post.

What I'm trying to address here is the issue of people hating us for being trans. I'm not saying we should stop trying to do anything at all (I said this in my post), I'm saying that maybe we're going about this the wrong way. Both the far-left and far-right are so angry about all of this, that nothing's actually getting done. I'm saying we should just calm down and talk about facts. I think the people kicking and screaming about it, and getting involved in petty arguments are doing just as much damage to our cause as any misinformation the opposition could spread about us. (again, I said all of this already). I think that the far-left is validating the far-right's arguments and vice versa. It's not going to work to try and have one side get everything they want. There needs to be agreement and compromise between everyone, and that means that no one is going to get 100% of what they want. But maybe it's better to only get 50% than to get nothing and just argue forever.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby marie » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:55 am

I agree with a lot of this. Whatever your view the reality is that a lot of hatred is now being directed at us in a way that never happened before. Not to mention ridicule at the 57 varieties of genderness being bandied around.

As a result now both the left and the right are on our case. Recently a very respected feminist in Britain made a cruel and unneccessary comment about tranwomen. She was criticised for it but also hotly defended by the right wing press in the UK for freedom of speech reasons as well as what she said.

That's where I first heard mention of a 'powerful and militant transgender lobby' which seemed fictional to me but yes there are activists who have led to situation where some parents fear their children are being 'turned' transgender by viewing websites and in school.

When even our natural allies the left, women and gay people are ridiculing us then something is seriously wrong. People need to step back from polemics. It's not doing us any favours and far from advancing our cause it's likely to keep people in the closet for fear of the reaction they might meet. We shouldn't have to be ashamed of who we are.

On that point PRIDE. Miki I'm surprised at your comments on this point. Yes maybe the word is overblown but the point should be clear. Pride is the opposite of shame which is exactly the reason for it's use by gay people because being gay was always seen as shameful. In fact it still is despite all the advances in attitudes. So maybe being proud of being trans is going too far but we shouldn't have to be ashamed of it. Which is the point after all.
As it is I am ashamed of it and the antics of a few activists is not helping me or anyone else in leaving that behind.O

Far from advancing our cause we are now held up to ridicule and hostility. They're like terrorists. Their extremism has the opposite effect intended.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Andina » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:17 am

:( I think I'll wait for the Reader's Digest version.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby PentacleGoddess » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:26 pm

I disagree with this pretty much in its entirety.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Kaylalovescupcakes » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:38 pm

Andina wrote::( I think I'll wait for the Reader's Digest version.


There's a TL;DR at the end of the first post if you don't want to read through the whole thing.

PentacleGoddess wrote:I disagree with this pretty much in its entirety.


Ok, why? What problems do you see with trying to take a different approach on the issue? Do you really think that compromise isn't a reasonable solution? Do you think that it's really better to just have a blunt emotional response to criticism of our cause, rather than looking deeper to see the nuances of the issue, and refuting arguments against us with facts? Do you not think that some activists take things too far? What's the point of just saying you disagree if you're not going to explain why? To me, it doesn't seem like it really advances the discussion at all.


Marie, I'd never heard the term "polemics" before, and had to look it up. I'm gonna have to remember that. It does seem to apply to the way a lot of people choose to express their views nowadays.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby marie » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:58 am

TBH Kayla I to look it up myself just to double check I wasn't using in the wrong context. But yes polemics are a far too much used these days. Plenty of it in this forum too but it's not too bad. One of reasons I've absented myself from most forms of social media is the sheer amount of it to be found everywhere.
It's all terribly negative.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Shizuku » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:36 pm

PentacleGoddess wrote:I disagree with this pretty much in its entirety.


Me too.




Edit: I would explain why in detail but can't ATM.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby CeliaEriksson » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 am

I did not know whether I wanted to get involved in this. But, I can see Kayla's point coz this kind of thing is too much :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... inist.html

I did not like this violence at all, it was nasty, embarrassing and unnecessary and as Kayla points out, actions like this go too far! Yet of course, (as I'm sure we all are), I am upset as to why these cis women are actively against recognising us as being women.

I guess I would want something inbetween, a measured, non-violent, non-ranting and thoughtful approach. I really don't want to get in any arguments or questions of call to duty about this, it's just my point of view. Celia xx
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby PentacleGoddess » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:48 am

I didn't explain why because I didn't particularly feel like getting into it at the time. I still don't really, particularly since my answer is probably going to piss you off, and partially since you seem fairly reactionary towards mild disagreement even from people who largely seem to agree with you.

So here's why: No civil rights movement in the history of *ever* has gained anything from kowtowing to bigotry, casual or blatant; "compromise", as you call it. I have no vested interest in playing nice or trying to reach detente with people who consider me less than human, who don't respect who I am, who think I shouldn't be able to use the public restroom of my correct gender. You suggest waiting for a 'better time', when people are 'less angry'; when, precisely, might that be and how long, precisely, are we meant to wait?

It is not the responsibility of a minority group to wait on the comfort of the majority before speaking up. Also could really do without your casual dismissal of NB and genderfluid people. We don't need to start kicking the next group down on the ladder in the face just because parts of the LGB community have spent so much time doing it to us.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby marie » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:32 am

PentacleGoddess wrote:So here's why: No civil rights movement in the history of *ever* has gained anything from kowtowing to bigotry, casual or blatant; "compromise", as you call it. I have no vested interest in playing nice or trying to reach detente with people who consider me less than human, who don't respect who I am, who think I shouldn't be able to use the public restroom of my correct gender.
Yes but no civil rights movement ever advanced without the either the approval of or at least the tacit support of the majority most of whom are either disinterested or unknowing about the subject.

The Daily Mail article above amply demonstrate exactly what not to do. The TERFs while odious and nasty are but a small minority. Using violence against is exactly the wrong reaction and if you look at the article and see the smug look on that woman's face you can see she thinks it's a victory for her point of view. That incident was widely reported and seen as an attack by a man dressed in women's clothes on a 60 year old woman. Exactly the sort of scenario the bathroom bigots envisage. The worst thing about many of these TERFs is their viewpoint tallies all too well with unthinking mainstream attitudes. The last thing we need is give them ammunition.

So yes, stand up for ourselves but do it with dignity not with a fist.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby PentacleGoddess » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:36 pm

The Daily Mail is a right wing rag run by propagandists. I care about their take on things about as much as I do Infowars or Weekly World News. And what that video 'looked like', to anyone who watches it instead of just reading the summary, is a trans woman trying to get a camera out of her face when she's put into a headlock and punched by this other woman claiming assault. The people who are going to cast it otherwise were never going to cast it as anything else.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby PentacleGoddess » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:48 pm

Kaylalovescupcakes wrote:Do you think that it's really better to just have a blunt emotional response to criticism of our cause, rather than looking deeper to see the nuances of the issue, and refuting arguments against us with facts? Do you not think that some activists take things too far?


This isn't walking and chewing gum. Both can be had and done, but to revisit the original point I made, it's not our responsibility to refute every idiotic talking point bigots come up with. Though there's plenty of people willing to do just that if you take the time to look. As to the last question, no, I don't. There is not a wealth of activists who regularly and detrimentally 'take it too far', whatever in particular is meant by that.

tl;dr for pretty much everything I've written in this thread so far: "Sit down, shut up, conform, go along to get along; no thanks".
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby nexyjo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:46 pm

PentacleGoddess wrote:...No civil rights movement in the history of *ever* has gained anything from kowtowing to bigotry, casual or blatant; "compromise", as you call it. I have no vested interest in playing nice or trying to reach detente with people who consider me less than human, who don't respect who I am, who think I shouldn't be able to use the public restroom of my correct gender...


This.

Fuck nuance.

Pretty much every minority group, here in there U.S. at least (the area of the world with which I am familiar) has faced the same issues. We can learn of bit from their experiences. Nuance and compromise got them shot on sight by police, routinely sexually abused, and denied decent housing and employment.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby marie » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:12 pm

PentacleGoddess wrote:The Daily Mail is a right wing rag run by propagandists. I care about their take on things about as much as I do Infowars or Weekly World News. And what that video 'looked like', to anyone who watches it instead of just reading the summary, is a trans woman trying to get a camera out of her face when she's put into a headlock and punched by this other woman claiming assault. The people who are going to cast it otherwise were never going to cast it as anything else.

Except for one thing. I read it in the Times, the London times. A very obviously distressed comment from a woman. Not a TERF. The reality is that a trans woman attacked a woman. We see it in the video.
Totally unacceptable. No more no .less
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby CeliaEriksson » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:35 pm

Can I say something and then grab my war helmet and hide under my desk. I know I posted the Daily Mail thingy about this coz I looked up the story on google and it was the Daily Mail one that came up. Now I know it is a right wing paper, I want to say I am not right wing or anything like that. I know this don't help this discussion, but it's important to me that nobody thinks I am. Celia xx
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Kaylalovescupcakes » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:26 pm

PentacleGoddess wrote:I didn't explain why because I didn't particularly feel like getting into it at the time. I still don't really, particularly since my answer is probably going to piss you off, and partially since you seem fairly reactionary towards mild disagreement even from people who largely seem to agree with you.


You seem awfully convinced that I'm the type of person to get angry about disagreement when I'm actively inviting people to disagree with me. The whole point of this is to more closely examine my own views, and that's tough to do without being presented with a different viewpoint.

PentacleGoddess wrote:So here's why: No civil rights movement in the history of *ever* has gained anything from kowtowing to bigotry, casual or blatant; "compromise", as you call it. I have no vested interest in playing nice or trying to reach detente with people who consider me less than human, who don't respect who I am, who think I shouldn't be able to use the public restroom of my correct gender. You suggest waiting for a 'better time', when people are 'less angry'; when, precisely, might that be and how long, precisely, are we meant to wait?

It is not the responsibility of a minority group to wait on the comfort of the majority before speaking up. Also could really do without your casual dismissal of NB and genderfluid people. We don't need to start kicking the next group down on the ladder in the face just because parts of the LGB community have spent so much time doing it to us.


I didn't dismiss anyone. I stated clearly that I think they have as much of a right as anyone to live how they want.

If that's really what you think reaching a compromise would mean, then I'm probably not going to be able to change your mind, but that's not what compromise is. It wouldn't mean giving in to all the demands of people who are against us, it would mean both sides get some of what they want. With the way you talk about people though, I can see why you would feel the way you do. You seem to think about as little of them as they do of us. Personally, I think that's part of the problem on both sides; People refusing to see each other for what they are: people. I think there would be a lot less opposition towards us if we took the time to understand why exactly people are against us, and that understanding would be tremendously valuable in the future. As for when the right time is to really make a big stink about things, well I obviously can't say. It's not going to happen over night. Whether we cry and scream, or research and reason, these things take time. Like I've already said a few times, it's not like letting people settle down and get over themselves means that we just stop all efforts towards our acceptance. I just feel like if we really want to make things better for trans people, then our efforts would be better spent on things other than endless arguments that accomplish nothing.

nexyjo wrote:Fuck nuance.


This is a big part of what I see as the problem. It's a complicated problem that affects a lot of people, and blanket solutions aren't going to work out well. By saying "fuck nuance" it's almost like we'd be saying "this problem isn't worth examining critically" which I definitely don't think is the case.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby nexyjo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:29 am

I don't see it as complicated. Some people think we deserve no rights. I think we do. To me, it seems pretty simple.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Kaylalovescupcakes » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:55 am

Who are these people that think we don't deserve rights? Why do they think that? What rights do they think we don't deserve? Don't you think that by taking such a simplistic view, you might be guilty of the same thing they are: lumping a group of people together and ascribing the most extreme views expressed by a vocal minority to the entire group? I say do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If we really want people to hear us out and listen to our concerns, I think we should at least extend that same courtesy to the other side.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Bea » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:42 am

It is not a courtesy to be treated like a human being. Our rights as human beings should have never been up for debate in the first place.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Natasha_Lynn » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:12 pm

Kaylalovescupcakes wrote:Who are these people that think we don't deserve rights? Why do they think that? What rights do they think we don't deserve? Don't you think that by taking such a simplistic view, you might be guilty of the same thing they are: lumping a group of people together and ascribing the most extreme views expressed by a vocal minority to the entire group? I say do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If we really want people to hear us out and listen to our concerns, I think we should at least extend that same courtesy to the other side.


We just want to be able to live our lives without being discriminated against, harassed, and possibly killed while doing it. Sorry, do I only get two out of three of those things in a compromise model? Should I smile and nod while somebody tells me that I am an abomination "because Jesus"?
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Kaylalovescupcakes » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:18 am

Bea wrote:It is not a courtesy to be treated like a human being. Our rights as human beings should have never been up for debate in the first place.


You're right, everyone's human and deserves to be treated as such. I never said anything to the contrary of that. I was saying that if we want people to listen to us we should also listen to them. Maybe I should have worded that differently.

Natasha_Lynn wrote:We just want to be able to live our lives without being discriminated against, harassed, and possibly killed while doing it. Sorry, do I only get two out of three of those things in a compromise model? Should I smile and nod while somebody tells me that I am an abomination "because Jesus"?


If any of those happened to you, the person responsible would be held accountable for their actions. Those are criminal offenses, and it doesn't matter who it happens to, it's wrong. If "because Jesus" is the best argument they can come up with against us, then that should speak for itself about the credibility of that person's argument.

Yes there are deficiencies regarding discrimination against us in matters like employment, housing, and reproductive rights, and these are serious matters that need to be addressed. Compromise wouldn't mean that one out of three crimes are legal if carried out against a trans person. That's just silly. Think of it this way: Laws are enacted to allow trans people to change their name and gender marker on their driver's license without having to go through SRS, however we can't change our name on our birth certificate. When required to present our birth certificate for whatever reason, we would just have to present an extra piece of paperwork linking our chosen name to our birth name. Our side gets to change our names without having to go through potentially medically unnecessary procedures that could affect our reproductive rights, and the other side, with their "you can't change how you were born" rhetoric, are appeased. I mean hey, we can't change how we were born, but we can change how we live our lives.

The name and sex we wind up being born with is out of our control. I think we can agree on this. No matter how much we wish we could, we can't go back in time and choose to be born as the opposite sex, or choose to have our parents name us something different. This is one argument I see frequently from folks who are against trans people. However, if later in life a person finds that they aren't happy with how they were born, for whatever reason, they should have the freedom to change the way they live their life so that they can be happy. I think we can also agree on this. Right? So valid points from both sides are taken into consideration, and changes are made accordingly. Our birth certificates would reflect how we were born, and the ID we use every day would reflect how we live our everyday lives.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby PentacleGoddess » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:52 am

It seems to me that you're advocating for the idea that some people are only 'kinda racist' or 'kinda bigoted', and if only we'd slow down in our progress towards equality so all these poor 'soft bigots' can catch their breath, we'd be ok.

I think not. The people you're talking about ARE listened to, and HAVE BEEN listened to, and won the game of life. It is not now nor should it ever be the responsibility of minority groups to hold the hand of the majority and make sure their fee-fees don't get knocked too far out of whack.

The material is out there and the arguments are out there, and have been for years. There's no excuse for still being an asshole in 2017.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby PentacleGoddess » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:54 am

nexyjo wrote:I don't see it as complicated. Some people think we deserve no rights. I think we do. To me, it seems pretty simple.


Bea wrote:It is not a courtesy to be treated like a human being. Our rights as human beings should have never been up for debate in the first place.


Natasha_Lynn wrote:We just want to be able to live our lives without being discriminated against, harassed, and possibly killed while doing it. Sorry, do I only get two out of three of those things in a compromise model? Should I smile and nod while somebody tells me that I am an abomination "because Jesus"?


All of these.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Kaylalovescupcakes » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:12 pm

PentacleGoddess wrote:It seems to me that you're advocating for the idea that some people are only 'kinda racist' or 'kinda bigoted', and if only we'd slow down in our progress towards equality so all these poor 'soft bigots' can catch their breath, we'd be ok.


How many times do I have to say that I don't think we should slow down progress towards equality, I think that name calling and knee-jerk reactions won't get us there? Because I don't think that we should slow down progress towards equality, I just think that name calling and knee-jerk reactions won't get us there. I'm honestly getting a little frustrated, because I feel like you're misrepresenting what I'm saying, then arguing against things I never said in the first place.

PentacleGoddess wrote:I think not. The people you're talking about ARE listened to, and HAVE BEEN listened to, and won the game of life. It is not now nor should it ever be the responsibility of minority groups to hold the hand of the majority and make sure their fee-fees don't get knocked too far out of whack.


Are we listening to the arguments against us, though? If it's an argument that doesn't hold water, such as Natasha_Lynn's example of "because Jesus", then that argument should be treated as invalid, because it is. Just ignore it. If it's an argument based in reality, though, such as my example of "we can't change how we were born", then that should be taken into consideration. I mean, what's the alternative? Should we deny that true things are true, just because people that disagree with us said them?

PentacleGoddess wrote:The material is out there and the arguments are out there, and have been for years. There's no excuse for still being an asshole in 2017.


To me, this last line is concerning. It sounds like you're saying that "Since some research has already been done, and some arguments have already been made, we can just stop trying to better understand this condition that affects so many people and just be content with what we've got." Which seems pretty similar to "slowing down progress towards equality" in my opinion. You're right though. It is in fact the current year, and someone that does inexcusably mean things is an asshole. That's kinda just what being an asshole is, isn't it?
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Bea » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:15 pm

Why would I entertain arguments and opinions which my lived experience have proven false? It just sounds like a waste of time.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby PentacleGoddess » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:56 am

Kaylalovescupcakes wrote:
PentacleGoddess wrote:I think not. The people you're talking about ARE listened to, and HAVE BEEN listened to, and won the game of life. It is not now nor should it ever be the responsibility of minority groups to hold the hand of the majority and make sure their fee-fees don't get knocked too far out of whack.


Are we listening to the arguments against us, though? If it's an argument that doesn't hold water, such as Natasha_Lynn's example of "because Jesus", then that argument should be treated as invalid, because it is. Just ignore it. If it's an argument based in reality, though, such as my example of "we can't change how we were born", then that should be taken into consideration. I mean, what's the alternative? Should we deny that true things are true, just because people that disagree with us said them?


Because it's a bad example? Who is actually arguing against our ability to change the gender marker on our birth certificates in the first place? I have yet to see that as a hill any of the arseholes are out there dying on. And regardless, there is obviously a physical cause for transgenderism, whatever it is. Why you think compromise equals not being able to change that marker once your physical transition is complete and instead having to have some additional bit of paperwork to link up your new status with your old seems both ridiculous and impractical. Paperwork with deadnames and old gender markers on it puts trans people in danger. End of story.

PentacleGoddess wrote:The material is out there and the arguments are out there, and have been for years. There's no excuse for still being an asshole in 2017.


To me, this last line is concerning. It sounds like you're saying that "Since some research has already been done, and some arguments have already been made, we can just stop trying to better understand this condition that affects so many people and just be content with what we've got." Which seems pretty similar to "slowing down progress towards equality" in my opinion. You're right though. It is in fact the current year, and someone that does inexcusably mean things is an asshole. That's kinda just what being an asshole is, isn't it?


Not even sure what you're talking about here. Scientific understanding of our condition has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether someone should be treated with basic levels of respect. We don't even really know what causes homosexuality yet, and yet progress for LGBQ continues apace. That understanding was not and should not be a prerequisite for them attaining acceptance socially, why should it be for us?

I don't think we're getting anywhere here, so I'm going to give you the short answer to your OP: Yes, I think your ideas are wrong.
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Re: Are my ideas just completely wrong?

Postby Natasha_Lynn » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:58 pm

"Settle down now trans people. Don't make those poor cis folk feel uncomfortable when fighting for your rights."
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