" A Protected Class "

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" A Protected Class "

Postby CuteButLooksPregnant » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:37 am

“Transgender people have long been forced to live in silence, or to come out and face the threat of overwhelming discrimination,” [U.S. District Judge Marsha] Pechman wrote.

“The Court also rules that, because transgender people have long been subjected to systemic oppression and forced to live in silence, they are a protected class. "
( italics and underline mine )

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/transgender-ban-trump-military_us_5ad1572ee4b0edca2cb9eea1

If this ruling holds up as it applies to the military, that implies that it could be applied to the business and academic worlds too, don't you think ?
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby REM1126 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:29 pm

Fantastic!!!!
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby MikiSJ » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:07 pm

Let's hope that Betsy DeVoss reads this as some courts have held Title Nine protects transgender students.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby SophieCantDance » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:15 am

I dunno Miki, do you think that Betsy DeVoss can read at all?
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby MikiSJ » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:09 am

SophieCantDance wrote:I dunno Miki, do you think that Betsy DeVoss can read at all?

Ouch! But a good question none the less.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby Medli » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:43 pm

Bullshit. That kind of language and behavior is an embarrassment to our legal system.

There shouldn't be preferential treatment just because a couple people have said mean things in the past.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby MikiSJ » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:01 pm

Medli wrote:Bullshit. That kind of language and behavior is an embarrassment to our legal system.

There shouldn't be preferential treatment just because a couple people have said mean things in the past.

Please splain, Lucy!
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby kris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:52 am

Medli wrote:Bullshit. That kind of language and behavior is an embarrassment to our legal system.

There shouldn't be preferential treatment just because a couple people have said mean things in the past.


It isn’t preferrential. In most cases it refers to a trait or characteristic against which discrimination is unfounded. So sex is not a valid basis for discrimination, and the protections in place for sex should include males, females, and intersex individuals. Some protections will be limited to narrower groups such as protections on the basis of disability. Why? Probably because discrimination on the basis of lack of disability isn’t so much a thing.

In trrms of people saying mean things, it isn’t really relevant. People are still free to say mean things, But i. a country like the United States of America, most people will have to work and secure goods and services made available to the public mot just for the pursuit of happiness, but for basic survival. So to that end, discrimination in employment, education, and securing goods and services available to the public cannot be barred on the basis of traits a person cannot choose not to have, or those which are a matter of fundamental rights such as religion.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby Medli » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:18 am

Discrimination on such basis has already been illegal.

"because transgender people have long been subjected to systemic oppression and forced to live in silence, they are a protected class. "

Let's just take this apart here one word at a time. "Because" This is suggesting it's due to a specific reason and not just a general thing. "long" suggests that the time span and severity and some bearing on this decision. "systematic oppression" is implying it's somehow ingrained into our society itself to "opress" trans people, which, I mean is a drastic overstatement and really sets the tone for what this is trying to convey. "forced to live in silence", which is a generalization and serves nothing but to be flavor to highlight how much emotional weight the judge is trying to place on this. Finally "protected class". Yeah there's already laws against discrimination, but trans people are extra special and we need to have extra strict laws to protect their feelings too.

It's saying something entirely redundant backed by loosely guised emotional rhetoric when it's only used to introduce backwards concepts that go against principles of equality by saying it's okay to do something to one group but not to another. This is why I take issue with the statement.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby SophieCantDance » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:03 am

@Medli keep in mind that there are just so many instances of trans people being discriminated against, verbally, and physically abused, denied employment, denied access to medical care, and the perpetrator getting away with it specifically because transgender people in many principalities are not legally protected from these types of discrimination. Yes we should not need this, because people should just treat everyone equally, but the sad fact is that without these kind of specific protections discrimination will continue.

Also, the quoted line is not actually in the ruling (which I suggest you read in full), I suspect that it was part of the Judge's verbal ruling, but those words are not found in the written ruling.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby kris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:35 am

"long" suggests that the time span and severity and some bearing on this decision. "systematic oppression" is implying it's somehow ingrained into our society itself to "opress" trans people, which, I mean is a drastic overstatement and really sets the tone for what this is trying to convey.


This is in response to the President of the United States using his office in a discriminatory manner.

"forced to live in silence", which is a generalization and serves nothing but to be flavor to highlight how much emotional weight the judge is trying to place on this.


Transgender people serving in the military would be forced to choose between their service and their gender identity, so yes, under a service ban they are being silenced or else discriminated against.

Finally "protected class". Yeah there's already laws against discrimination,


That is what ‘protected class’ is referring to; however, what exists at the federal level, to my understanding, is an interpretation that gender identity is protected from discrimination under sex rather than explicit protection. That is what is being clarified in the statement, which likely needs to be clarified as the President and parts of his administration do not seem to agree with that interpretation.

but trans people are extra special and we need to have extra strict laws to protect their feelings too.


What laws?


It's saying something entirely redundant backed by loosely guised emotional rhetoric when it's only used to introduce backwards concepts that go against principles of equality by saying it's okay to do something to one group but not to another. This is why I take issue with the statement.


It is being used to stop a ban in military service which appears to be based on the idea that trans people are icky. The reasons offered by the PotUS for the ban don’t add up. So what does this statement specifically do for trans people that it does not do for cis?
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby Medli » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:36 pm

SophieCantDance wrote:@Medli keep in mind that there are just so many instances of trans people being discriminated against, verbally, and physically abused, denied employment, denied access to medical care, and the perpetrator getting away with it specifically because transgender people in many principalities are not legally protected from these types of discrimination. Yes we should not need this, because people should just treat everyone equally, but the sad fact is that without these kind of specific protections discrimination will continue.

Also, the quoted line is not actually in the ruling (which I suggest you read in full), I suspect that it was part of the Judge's verbal ruling, but those words are not found in the written ruling.


It's already so easy to get sued for discrimination nowadays. For those situations I'd assume it was either uncontested by the victims, incompetence on part of lawyers, or the claims were inaccurate. Though in the case of insults or hate speech towards trans people, that shouldn't be something one can get in trouble for anyway.

Then perhaps the written ruling is better, but I'm not too interested in getting into the whole situation and debating that just commented to say I take issue with the phrasing from the quote.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby Medli » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:52 pm

kris wrote:
"long" suggests that the time span and severity and some bearing on this decision. "systematic oppression" is implying it's somehow ingrained into our society itself to "opress" trans people, which, I mean is a drastic overstatement and really sets the tone for what this is trying to convey.


This is in response to the President of the United States using his office in a discriminatory manner.

"forced to live in silence", which is a generalization and serves nothing but to be flavor to highlight how much emotional weight the judge is trying to place on this.


Transgender people serving in the military would be forced to choose between their service and their gender identity, so yes, under a service ban they are being silenced or else discriminated against.

Finally "protected class". Yeah there's already laws against discrimination,


That is what ‘protected class’ is referring to; however, what exists at the federal level, to my understanding, is an interpretation that gender identity is protected from discrimination under sex rather than explicit protection. That is what is being clarified in the statement, which likely needs to be clarified as the President and parts of his administration do not seem to agree with that interpretation.

but trans people are extra special and we need to have extra strict laws to protect their feelings too.


What laws?


It's saying something entirely redundant backed by loosely guised emotional rhetoric when it's only used to introduce backwards concepts that go against principles of equality by saying it's okay to do something to one group but not to another. This is why I take issue with the statement.


It is being used to stop a ban in military service which appears to be based on the idea that trans people are icky. The reasons offered by the PotUS for the ban don’t add up. So what does this statement specifically do for trans people that it does not do for cis?


If that is the case, then the judge was incorrect to say "have long since been systematically oppressed".

The tense is inconsistent here. You're saying that with Trumps ruling they would have to when the judge is saying they long since have. So that is not what they are referring to in that statement.

If that is the case, then the ruling should be about clarifying how laws apply to gender identity rather than creating a "protected class".

It depends on how this "protected class" is enforced.

I don't believe Trump's statement on the matter was than trans people are "icky", rather that he doesn't want trans people to enlist in the military as a way to get the government to pay for transitioning.
Again, it's difficult to tell with the ambiguity of the term, but I don't believe "cis" are considered to be "protected" in a special regard.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby kris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:04 pm

Medli wrote:The tense is inconsistent here. You're saying that with Trumps ruling they would have to when the judge is saying they long since have. So that is not what they are referring to in that statement.


I am not saying this is the only instance of discriminatory policy; I am saying that particular case is an example of systemic discrimination. This case in itself is an example of long-standing discrimination as openly trans* people have been barred from service in the armed forces for a rather long time.

If that is the case, then the ruling should be about clarifying how laws apply to gender identity rather than creating a "protected class".


That is essentially what is being done here.

It depends on how this "protected class" is enforced.


In this particular case, it means that the threshold for barring individuals from service on the basis of gender identity is higher than the PotUS has met. Until that threshold is met, the previous injunction against the ban remains in place. It's not ambiguous.

I don't believe Trump's statement on the matter was than trans people are "icky", rather that he doesn't want trans people to enlist in the military as a way to get the government to pay for transitioning.


You can believe what you like, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. According to the ruling, the ban applies to anyone with a history of a gender dysphoria diagnosis, yet not all who are diagnosed transition. Second, the ban applies to those who have transitioned, so in that case the medical expenses would be minimal. Third, even, in the cases where a person may desire to transition while in active service, assessments of the cost have already been given from more than one source confirming the cost -- in the context of annual military health care expenditures -- would be trivial.

Again, it's difficult to tell with the ambiguity of the term, but I don't believe "cis" are considered to be "protected" in a special regard.


Cis people aren't being discriminated against on the basis of gender identity, and they are currently protected on the basis of sex. This isn't a 'special' right.

The ambiguity you sense seems to be coming from two things. First, you're treating the term 'protected class' like it is generic language rather than a term used in law with a more established meaning. Second, you're ignoring that the term applies in a greater context of court decisions and legal philosophy and practice. Correct me if I'm wrong. It feels very much like you are arguing beside the point and ultimately your disagreement is with something which is not particularly... real.
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Re: " A Protected Class "

Postby MikiSJ » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:47 am

A little research goes a long ways:
A protected group or protected class is a group of people qualified for special protection by a law, policy, or similar authority. In the United States, the term is frequently used in connection with employees and employment.

Where discrimination on the basis of protected group status is concerned, a single act of discrimination may be based on membership in more than one protected group. For example, discrimination based on antisemitism may relate to religion, national origin, or both; discrimination against a pregnant woman might be based on sex, marital status, or both.[1]

U.S. federal law protects individuals from discrimination or harassment based on sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin or religion. Many state laws also give certain protected groups special protection against harassment and discrimination, as do many employer policies. Although it is not required by federal law, employer policies may also protect employees from harassment or discrimination based on marital status or sexual orientation.[1] The following characteristics are "protected" by United States federal anti-discrimination law:

Race – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Religion – Civil Rights Act of 1964
National origin – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Age (40 and over) – Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Sex – Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Civil Rights Act of 1964
The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission interprets 'sex' to include discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity[2]
Pregnancy – Pregnancy Discrimination Act
Citizenship – Immigration Reform and Control Act
Familial status – Civil Rights Act of 1968 Title VIII: Housing cannot discriminate for having children, with an exception for senior housing
Disability status – Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
Veteran status – Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
Genetic information – Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act
Individual states can and do create other classes for protection under state law.

U.S. Presidents have also issued executive orders which prohibit consideration of particular attributes in employment decisions of the United States government and its contractors. These have included Executive Order 11246 (1965), Executive Order 11478 (1969), Executive Order 13087 (1998), Executive Order 13279 (2003), and Executive Order 13672 (2014).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group

Executive Order 13672 is of particular interest to us as it prohibited discrimination in the civilian federal workforce on the basis of gender identity and in hiring by federal contractors on the basis of both sexual orientation and gender identity.

I think Trump goes to sleep each night dreaming of overturning this EO. Probably needs to have the wet spot cleaned up in the morning by his black housekeepers.
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