The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Activism, Civil Rights, Debate, Theory, and Research

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Bea » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:47 am

julie.chan wrote:That infographic contains an assertion with no justification for that assertion. Just replace "intolerant" with "Jews" and it's equally as strong. That is to say, not at all.


How?

Are you saying that the Jews are going to subjugate everyone else? That's the only way that would be a valid substitution.
User avatar
Bea
Member
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:15 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:43 am

That's not necessary.

Do I need to explicitly say that "When we extend tolerance to those who are openly intolerant, the tolerant ones end up being destroyed" is a non-sequitur? Because it is. No reason is given as to why one would follow the other, because it wouldn't. That's why you could replace "intolerant" with "Jews" and it would make just as much sense. That is to say, none at all.

Let me spell it out for you with some examples:

"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly Jews, Christians end up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are black, white people end up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly gay, families end up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly transgender, society ends up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly leftist, the economy ends up being destroyed."

Do you get my point yet? That graphic is a piece of propaganda garbage. It can be applied to any form of bigotry whatsoever and work exactly the same.
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Bea » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:08 am

None of those work because none of the groups in the first part of the statement have it as their express stated and essential purpose to subjugate the groups in the second.

It's the definition of the word intolerant. That's the reason it's a special case that intolerance cannot be tolerated.

And when you preach tolerance for the intolerant, that's when you've gotta ask yourself who you're really working for.
User avatar
Bea
Member
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:15 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby CeliaEriksson » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:25 am

Correct Bea. Intolerance against difference spreads fear and should not be legal. Where it is legal, something is wrong and does need to change. I advocate peaceful change within current democratic society, but where a society is to be governed by evil bigotry, of course that view would change.

There is a big difference between a just freedom fight against an evil society, such as Milorg or the French Freedom Fighters of WWII, or the ANC in their fight against evil and the pure evil of terrorist groups such as ISIL or far right and far left wing bigots spreading their fear, bigotry and hurt in open societies.

It's not hard to use one's common sense and distinguish bigots from good people. Zero tolerance to them as far as I'm concerned.
Take chances, make mistakes. That's how you grow. Pain nourishes your courage. You have to fail in order to practice being brave.
Mary Tyler Moore.
User avatar
CeliaEriksson
Member
 
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 4:02 am

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:10 am

It's not hard to use one's common sense and distinguish bigots from good people.

Yep, absolutely true. And of course, bigots can never be convinced to stop being bigoted, nor even of the fact that they are bigoted.

I'd say that's a nice note to end on.
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby PentacleGoddess » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:49 am

julie.chan wrote:That's not necessary.

Do I need to explicitly say that "When we extend tolerance to those who are openly intolerant, the tolerant ones end up being destroyed" is a non-sequitur? Because it is. No reason is given as to why one would follow the other, because it wouldn't. That's why you could replace "intolerant" with "Jews" and it would make just as much sense. That is to say, none at all.

Let me spell it out for you with some examples:

"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly Jews, Christians end up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are black, white people end up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly gay, families end up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly transgender, society ends up being destroyed."
"When we extend tolerance to those who are openly leftist, the economy ends up being destroyed."

Do you get my point yet? That graphic is a piece of propaganda garbage. It can be applied to any form of bigotry whatsoever and work exactly the same.


This is literally the most inane, shortsighted, self-righteous thing I've read today, which after a Caitlin Johnstone article is saying something. Your argument here is grade-A shit and your substitutions those of a naive, comfortable child.

Image

Image
"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"
User avatar
PentacleGoddess
Board Moderator
 
Posts: 6133
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:15 am

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Lesley Niyori » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:27 am

Glad I'm Canadian.

No, I will NOT fight to the death to defend your right to be a nasty hate mongering SOB.

Here in Canada, we exercise the right to use our fucking brains to identify self-evident hate, and then we tell you to stop spreading it, or else.

Example, while the useless shit Fred Phelps was still breathing, he was considered a terrorist and was NOT allowed to enter Canada. A person can rant and rave and scream all they want about their fucking religious beliefs all they want in the US. But they won't be bringing them here.

We ain't interested in hate.

Oh, and this is NOT where we say sorry for expecting you to behave like decent human beings :)

Freedom of speech, it isn't the same as freedom from hate obviously. I'll pick freedom from hate over being able to be a hateful little shit any day.
If you are verbally mean to me, I will verbally bite you back.
If you attempt to chastise me for verbally biting someone who was verbally mean to me, I'll verbally bite you too. Don't be quoting me rules either.
sukunai.ni.yori@hotmail.com
User avatar
Lesley Niyori
Member
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:27 pm
Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:58 am

The fact that you have no recourse but to reference a bunch of left-wing propaganda cartoons just shows to me that you have no real argument. You're still a bigoted Fascist who is promoting violence, and I still support your right to hold and express these appalling views.

Example, while the useless shit Fred Phelps was still breathing, he was considered a terrorist and was NOT allowed to enter Canada. A person can rant and rave and scream all they want about their fucking religious beliefs all they want in the US. But they won't be bringing them here.

If it's true that he was banned from entry for his speech alone, that's a dangerous precedent.

Freedom of speech, it isn't the same as freedom from hate obviously. I'll pick freedom from hate over being able to be a hateful little shit any day.

This video argues my point regarding this well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xGekzN6EuM
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Lesley Niyori » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:40 am

Nope, banning Fred wasn't a dangerous thing at all. Glad he was never allowed into Canada, kinda glad he's dead now too. Good riddance. No one misses him. Well, I don't at least. He was a worthless homophobic scum bag.

Watched that video for a few minutes, until I was certain I had no idea what the relevance was to my assertion.

Perhaps, instead of using someone else's thoughts, from a video, you could just simply use the option to actually speak them yourself.

I'm glad GLAD that a person heaping hate on me, here in Canada, can be arrested and charged with hate crimes. Damn glad. There are lots of people IN Canada, that are likely worthy of being hated. But, I'd rather forgo my ability to hate on them, in trade for them being unable to hate on me as well. It results in a lot less hate.

Think about that, the next time you need to pee, in a restroom in the US, and are at risk of being forced to do so in the wrong restroom for YOUR gender. And all because there is no will to tell those haters they can't engage in campaigns of lies and hate.

Think about it for if you find yourself in an emergency ward of a hospital, and the doctor decides it's against their religious beliefs to save your life. And all because the hate mongers have no one telling them their hate is unwelcome.
If you are verbally mean to me, I will verbally bite you back.
If you attempt to chastise me for verbally biting someone who was verbally mean to me, I'll verbally bite you too. Don't be quoting me rules either.
sukunai.ni.yori@hotmail.com
User avatar
Lesley Niyori
Member
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:27 pm
Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:51 am

Watched that video for a few minutes, until I was certain I had no idea what the relevance was to my assertion.

So, instead of watching the next 10 minutes, you spent those 10 minutes writing a post replying something you only looked at partially.

Did you mean to say that you are opposed to freedom of speech?

Perhaps, instead of using someone else's thoughts, from a video, you could just simply use the option to actually speak them yourself.

I could, but that video expresses my thoughts on the matter perfectly. I see no need to reinvent the wheel.

Think about that, the next time you need to pee, in a restroom in the US, and are at risk of being forced to do so in the wrong restroom for YOUR gender.

Michigan doesn't have one of those "bathroom bills", and they have nothing to do with freedom of speech or "hate speech". I oppose such laws.

Think about it for if you find yourself in an emergency ward of a hospital, and the doctor decides it's against their religious beliefs to save your life.

That is actually illegal and has nothing to do with freedom of speech or "hate speech".
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Lesley Niyori » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:01 am

Well that's the joy of living in the US eh.

One state says this one state says that. My desire to visit the US is zero, too many states, too many variables.

Here in Canada, hate speech protection is federal. It's not allowed anywhere in Canada.

Do I not like freedom of speech? Not if the price is permitting hate. We don't consider freedom of speech so valuable that we let it ruin our lives.

Yeah I didn't watch the entire video. Because the first several minutes were a waste of my time. So I elected to stop wasting my time on it.

I'm a professional writer by the way, I type very fast :) this didn't take long to post. At best 45 seconds.
If you are verbally mean to me, I will verbally bite you back.
If you attempt to chastise me for verbally biting someone who was verbally mean to me, I'll verbally bite you too. Don't be quoting me rules either.
sukunai.ni.yori@hotmail.com
User avatar
Lesley Niyori
Member
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:27 pm
Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:14 am

Do I not like freedom of speech? Not if the price is permitting hate.

OK, then I guess you're right. The video is about supporting free speech while opposing "hate speech". If you oppose free speech, you're consistent in with what you say and I have nothing more to say about it.

I'm a professional writer by the way, I type very fast :) this didn't take long to post. At best 45 seconds.

I was referring to the amount of time you're spending thinking about what to say and looking over what you wrote. You do think before you post, don't you? I usually spend several minutes on each post, and at times it's been as long as a half hour. Even so, it still often isn't enough.
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Lesley Niyori » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:19 am

Some would say you are just being argumentative too.

Some actually get off on that me thinks.
If you are verbally mean to me, I will verbally bite you back.
If you attempt to chastise me for verbally biting someone who was verbally mean to me, I'll verbally bite you too. Don't be quoting me rules either.
sukunai.ni.yori@hotmail.com
User avatar
Lesley Niyori
Member
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:27 pm
Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby PentacleGoddess » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:45 pm

julie.chan wrote:The fact that you have no recourse but to reference a bunch of left-wing propaganda cartoons just shows to me that you have no real argument. You're still a bigoted Fascist who is promoting violence, and I still support your right to hold and express these appalling views.


Your entire argument has consisted of "Nuh uh, you're a fascist, violence against people advocating for a racist nationalist ethnostate is fascism", which is pretty much THE peak 2017/2018 waffling, comfortably centrist argument. The cartoons are, frankly, because I've grown tired of wasting my breath on you.

The hilarious thing is you knee-jerk reacting against the Popper cartoon even though it at no point literally advocates violence or state censorship. In a sane world it'd be right up your alley! But you're so entrenched, so addicted to your literally dead end naivete that you can't even see that. You reacted against it because someone you'd disagreed with posted it. So please, don't lecture me about who is arguing 'properly'.
"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"
User avatar
PentacleGoddess
Board Moderator
 
Posts: 6133
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:15 am

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Bea » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:49 pm

But hey, whatever, we're just bigoted toward bigots. It's not so bad, and I feel like we're in good company.

Better than among people who are bigoted toward people who are bigoted toward bigots!

Soft-core Nazi sympathizers...
User avatar
Bea
Member
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:15 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby kris » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:03 pm

If it's true that he was banned from entry for his speech alone, that's a dangerous precedent.


I am not sure he ever was truly blacklisted. There are some instances where WBC members may have had issues at the border. Like most sovereign states, we reserve the right to refuse admittance to non-citizens at our discretion. Nearly a decade ago some members were barred from entry because they were planning to picket the funeral of Tim McLean who was murdered on a Greyhound Bus. Supposedly some members were turned away and some made it across the border; however, the protest never happened. I don't know if any of the members were blacklisted though. I don't believe they are listed as terrorists. Regardless, they weren't blocked because of their speech; they were blocked because we aren't obligated to offer them a venue for creating disruption and tumult by harassing the aggrieved mourning a murder victim.

Would the protest have been legal had it taken place? I don't really know. People can wax philosophical on what charges could have been laid to halt such a demonstration, but until there has actually been a ruling, it's hard to say for certain. Many people think Canada's hate propaganda statutes would be sufficient, but those statutes are more narrow and difficult to enforce than many think. The WBC has a habit of toeing the line about as closely as a person can. While that line is set at a different place in Canada than it is in the US, you still have to push pretty hard to cross it.

Our hate propaganda laws do represent a limitation on freedom of expression. While freedom of expression is a constitutional right, the Supreme Court of Canada determined the limitation was so narrow and specific, and the threshold was so high, and the limitation concerned an issue pressing and substantial enough to be warranted. I am inclined to agree.
kris
Member
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:31 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:31 am

which is pretty much THE peak 2017/2018 waffling, comfortably centrist argument.

I've noted that you seem awfully comfortable with suggesting that I am a centrist. Not that that would be a bad thing (despite how disparagingly you talk about centrism), but I identify as a liberal, not a centrist. I don't agree with the method of the Political Compass survey, but it rates me at about (-5,-6) most of the time (strongly leftist, strongly libertarian):

https://politicalcompass.org/analysis2? ... &soc=-6.82

Your entire argument has consisted of "Nuh uh, you're a fascist, violence against people advocating for a racist nationalist ethnostate is fascism"

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that me pointing out that you are a Fascist was only a small part of what I said in this thread. This is our main disagreement:

* You think Fascists should be assaulted and beaten to scare them into submission. You think Fascists are so harmful (in a way that you have not properly defined) that their rights are unimportant.
* I think your beliefs are perfectly in-line with Fascism, i.e. you are a Fascist. However, you being a Fascist, I do not think you should be assaulted and beaten to scare you into submission. I think that would be a violation of the Fascists' fundamental human rights -- your fundamental human rights -- and that such a violation is always intolerable.

Pointing out that your position is Fascist in nature is only an interesting observation; it is not essential to my point. It does, however, demonstrate the inevitable consequences of your position, too, which is a nice bonus. Of course, since you clearly feel so strongly about this topic (let me remind you that it was you who resurrected the thread), I assume you must be okay with that inevitable consequence.

You reacted against it because someone you'd disagreed with posted it.

No, I "reacted against" it (as you put it) because it is a vile, hypocritical justification for bigoted intolerance based on assertion that is not backed by evidence. Such hypocrisy would get just as much flak from me if the person posting it was on my own "side". Actually, probably more, because then it would be making a cause I support look bad.
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Natasha_Lynn » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:31 am

A) Calling us Fascists some arbitrary number of times doesn't make it true.

B) You can be a centrist about individual issues even if you are a bleeding-heart liberal or a gun-toting Sovereign Citizen overall.

C) Beating Fascists into submission seemed to work out pretty okay in WW2. Nobody's shedding a tear for all those poor Nazis and their poor persecuted ideas. Remember, at one time Hitler was just some dude with an emo haircut and terrible views. Then he got a soapbox.

D)
Image
Partially disturbed, totally awesome.
User avatar
Natasha_Lynn
Member
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:00 pm
Location: On a small serene island located in a stygian realm of charnel horror

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby PentacleGoddess » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:31 pm

Bea wrote:But hey, whatever, we're just bigoted toward bigots. It's not so bad, and I feel like we're in good company.

Better than among people who are bigoted toward people who are bigoted toward bigots!

Soft-core Nazi sympathizers...


Yeeep.
"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"
User avatar
PentacleGoddess
Board Moderator
 
Posts: 6133
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:15 am

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby PentacleGoddess » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:33 pm

Natasha_Lynn wrote:A) Calling us Fascists some arbitrary number of times doesn't make it true.

B) You can be a centrist about individual issues even if you are a bleeding-heart liberal or a gun-toting Sovereign Citizen overall.

C) Beating Fascists into submission seemed to work out pretty okay in WW2. Nobody's shedding a tear for all those poor Nazis and their poor persecuted ideas. Remember, at one time Hitler was just some dude with an emo haircut and terrible views. Then he got a soapbox.

D)
Image


All of this, and also, I cannot stop staring at the cat. Holy shit. That thing is going to haunt my nightmares.
"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"
User avatar
PentacleGoddess
Board Moderator
 
Posts: 6133
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:15 am

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:04 pm

Beating Fascists into submission seemed to work out pretty okay in WW2.

That's not a valid comparison. The Axis Powers were not defeated by a bunch of people assaulting strangers on the street. They were defeated by militaries, headed by other states, one of which was the Soviet Union, a left-wing Fascist country headed by Stalin, a man who murdered millions of his own citizens the same way Hitler did.
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby Natasha_Lynn » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:14 pm

julie.chan wrote:That's not a valid comparison. The Axis Powers were not defeated by a bunch of people assaulting strangers on the street. They were defeated by militaries, headed by other states, one of which was the Soviet Union, a left-wing Fascist country headed by Stalin, a man who murdered millions of his own citizens the same way Hitler did.


Well by golly the whole Hitler thing might have been avoided entirely if someone had the good sense to punch a Nazi back in the day!

PentacleGoddess wrote:All of this, and also, I cannot stop staring at the cat. Holy shit. That thing is going to haunt my nightmares.


Another job well done.
Partially disturbed, totally awesome.
User avatar
Natasha_Lynn
Member
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:00 pm
Location: On a small serene island located in a stygian realm of charnel horror

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby julie.chan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:27 pm

Well by golly the whole Hitler thing might have been avoided entirely if someone had the good sense to punch a Nazi back in the day!

You can say this all you want, but that doesn't make it true. No one who has ever said this has actually presented any evidence that oppressing a tiny minority party (which the National Socialist Party was at the time) by assaulting its members on the street would have somehow stopped them from gaining prominence.
User avatar
julie.chan
Regular
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: The left in Britain is getting a bit fascist....

Postby PentacleGoddess » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:11 pm

Natasha_Lynn wrote:B) You can be a centrist about individual issues even if you are a bleeding-heart liberal or a gun-toting Sovereign Citizen overall.


Not to mention that given the degree to which the alt right, tea party, and Dems have shifted the Overton window, liberalism = centrism these days. At best. The modern Democratic Party is equivalent to 80s Republicans except for vague, waffling support on social issues. They've been on a slow rightward slide since at least then.
"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"
User avatar
PentacleGoddess
Board Moderator
 
Posts: 6133
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:15 am

Previous

Return to Politics, Philosophy, and Science

coiae

Consonance of Identity and Expression


© 2000 - 2016 The Ultimate Paradigm